Religion - Pure & Undiluted.

Despite the best efforts of some people with ready access to the media worldwide, religion is asserting itself as never before, for 100 years, at least.

It's all too much for me. I'm de facto religious because I was baptised into the Catholic church in 1934, ordained priest in 1960 and am still serving in South Melbourne since 1973.

Richard Dawkin's book "The God Delusion" has revived the entertainment value of religion among secularists.

And, now, some of Dawkin's acolytes (sorry global citizens, I mustn't  sink into the murky depths of locality...Australia) like playright David Williamson, Pamela Bone the journalist/writer and Robyn Rileg journalist, who ALL have been bitten by a mad dog they call Religion.

They want to drive out of religion the demons of superstition and irrationality. The exorcism, say Dawkins and Co., will kill off religion, which of course, it won't because religion is "other" than rational.

It may, however, entertain the aforementioned exorcists.

As for the "furphy" that religion causes, more than any other factor, wars and other horrors? This culture of war and horror comes in a separate package from religion.  It comes from the most primitive parts of the human mind and heart. Religion, at its best, is the ritual and practice of whatever brings us together for the common good.

To quote the "good book": religion pure and undiluted is feeding the orphan and widow.

Richard Dawkins, et al, have built a straw man out of the debris left when religion "pure and undiluted" expels the toxins contained in bad religion, itself an expression of bad culture.

Good religion is only able to be the vehicle of the eternal and infinite God, aka the infinite Relational Matrix. Bob.

Comments

[Bronwyn]

...and that is why I won't buy books saying that religion is the cause of all evil and wars etc etc etc.

It's not. People use religion as a front for their deeds and actions, heinous or otherwise.

Religion can be, and is, a wonderful thing. May not be for everyone, but that's OK. It's just not OK when Religion gets blamed for all the bad things in this world - that's just fallacious, foolish and naive, as well as historically and pyschologically ignorant and erroneous.

[Rick Giles]

If you can't blame one's belief system (ie religion/philosophy) for one's evils what can you blame, Bronwyn?
Or are you just saying that religion isn't 100% to blame whereas its share may well be in the high eighties? I'd go for 88% myself, leaving a nice tidy 12% of evil to be blamed on the secular world.

Bob, can you take some time to go into what you mean when you say religion is "other than rational?" You've said on the radio that what many of us don't get is that God is not an idea.

What in blue blazes does that mean?

Rick ex Mildura

[Anne Digges]

I don't think that the Catholic Church or any Church of any colour or persuasion should be concerned by books like this. The reality is that the believers believe for better or for worse. And the non believers non believe. Occasionally some swap sides but rarely. All in all the Catholic Church needs to be alot less defensive with regard to person/s questioning their motives and reasons for doing various things. People are entitled to do this and will continue to.

I consider myself to be a thinking Catholic one who believes but who knows that believing is totally irrational. I also consider all of my beliefs to be open to scrutiny by anyone and they are constantly. Also just because I call myself a Catholic does not mean that I believe everything that you, Bob, believe, or that everything that another Catholic believes however I believe that the Catholic Church whilst being embarassingly narrow in some regards is quite enlightened in other regards and it is the latter that keeps me coming back.

I also think that Religion is responsible for some of the most vicious wars around the globe. The main cause of war though is the inability to see our adversary as a human being just like us. Everything in our society is forcing us to live in labelled boxes separate from one another because people with one label cannot talk to people with another label. The powers that be love labels and the powers that be start and wage wars.

I consider an attempt to be a good human being far more important that an attempt to be a good Catholic or a good Australian or a good Woman or any other label that I have been given in my life.

A random comment: I recently bought a dog (his name is Duncan) and he has over the past 2 months taught me alot about unconditional love, affection, being, calmness, fun and exercise. All this from a dog which spelt backwards is god!

[Bronwyn]

Rick,

Dictators, despots, totalitarians, neo-cons - whatever, whoever - often use religion to JUSTIFY their reasons for their actions. It's not religion making them do it - it's THEM who are USING religion to justify their actions.

I did not mention secularism. It's not secularism. It's not religion. It's human nature to be greedy, hypocritical, lustful, murderous. Maybe it's not human nature; maybe it's from being a product of their environment. Maybe it's from being a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

Then again, it may be an erroneous reading of belief from a particular religion (if the Bible is supposedly pro-life, it did not mean that Christians go and blow up abortion clinics and murder doctors - that's the WRONG reading of the Bible, and I doubt that's what the Bible asked them to do; likewise, suicide bombers have been wrongly taught that by blowing themselves up will get them to heaven and all that jazz with the wimmin.)

It's not religion, per se, so don't blame religion (and likewise don't blame secularism). It's the MISUSE of religion (and, if you like, secularism) that causes so many problems.

Philosophy, as opposed to religion, is a different beast. Sure there are philosophical values in common with religious values, but anyone can create a philosophy (and by extension, a cult or movement) designed to reflect their own personal views and human nature, without even drawing from a religious source. Too easy to create a philosophy declaring that blowing up clinics is the right thing to do, without even bringing in the religious element into it.

[Jason]

Therefore it is your responsibility to actively lobby John Howard to stop going to war in Gods name, and demand a fuller separation between his government and your Church.

[Bronwyn]

But John Howard hasn't gone to war in church's name; he went on the ask of Dubya.

Also, what's my church you speak of? I don't belong to any church. I'm not a Christian.

Even so, why do you assume I haven't been lobbying John Howard? Does it have to a church-goer's responsibility to ask for fuller separation of church and state? What about secularists or non-Christians or atheists or agnostics? Isn't it their responsibility too?

[Anne Digges]

"But John Howard hasn't gone to war in church's name; he went on the ask of Dubya."

And Dubya has a very strong support base amongst the Christian Right of which the Catholic Church is at least 80% a part.

[Anne Digges]

The Christian Right do not like gays and lesbians, they support Israel against Palestine, they oppose Abortion and actively harass persons attempting to have them, they do not like women ministers and they love war.

All in all lovely people.

[Andrew Decker]

Ann - the American Christian Right is not homogenous organisation; some are conservative; some could even be considered progressive. All that considered as the Christian Right are Protestant, the Catholic Church isn't part of that. Also, not all Christian Right organisations believe that they have to support Israel until the second coming of Christ - that is a minority.
And please do not get too enamoured with the Palestinians - both parties are to blame if blame need to be allocated and its been going on for hundreds of years.

Please do not use such an incredibly broad brush - there are also Christian churches who ordained gays and women priests and you also find those in the U.S.A.; lots of those are also preaching against the war in Iraq.

"And Dubya has a very strong support base amongst the Christian Right of which the Catholic Church is at least 80% a part."

But it doesn't follow that Howard went to war because of the Chrisitan Right. He doesn't give a fig about the Christian Right in the USA - he only does what Dubya wants. Kyoto Protocol? Check. Guantanamo Bay? Check. Possibly more soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? Check. Nuclear power? Check. Free Trade Agreement? Check.

Dubya also has lost a huge power base in the Christian Right in the US. Just read one of the many articles about it. What about those recent elections? And Howard came out and said he was practically standing by Dubya all the way, even as Dubya loses support daily.

[Fred]

I couldnt have put it any better Bronwyn.

Wars have been (are being) fought in the name of religion only for purely political purposes. If you look at it closely, even arguably the most "religious-orientated" war i.e. the crusades, were fought by leaders (on both sides) who merely used God as a means of mustering political and military support.

These days in order to support "the good life" that the "Civilised Western World" enjoys, politicians are increasingly pressurised to keep their countries on top of the economic food chain. And we all know that natural resources and wars are great generators of funds. In the early 20th century perhaps the dream of an all embracing national identity (albeit vaguely defined) was enough to generate support for great nations to grow. When the times arent so good, a common enemy is needed to galvanise a nation together. In the 60s this enemy was Communism for the Americans and the "free world" and vice versa i.e. the threat of Consumerism for the Russians and ultra left. The point being, believe it or not WAR is fought only to gain a POLITICAL advantage. Whats done with this advantage, be it to sustain a certain lifestyle or to serve ones personal misinterpretation of a religion, is anyones guess.

It is very sad (and slowly becoming annoyingly repetitious) that most mainstream religious leaders have to constantly come out saying that they denounce war. Perhaps humans are simply wired to pick out the bad apple and inadvertently focus our insecurities on it.

[Rick Giles]

Bronwyn, my premise is that humans are driven by belief. Therefore, blame-worthy human action can be blamed on the belief, and belief system, the human in question subscribes to.

If you disagree with this then it would be interesting to know what you think controls individual humans. If not our beliefs, some offworld pupetmaster's strings perhaps?

If you agree that our beliefs cause our actions then surely it's clear that the dominent form of belief system is religion? And, historically, it is the religious belief system that has the bad record.

We need a new belief matrix to replace religion. That's clear and simple, unless there's something to be said for Bob's notion that God is not an idea. Maybe there is, I don't know. He isn't saying.

[Shaun]

Dawkins probably misses a lot of the good things that religion does and can do. However, he's an evolutionary biologist and his field comes under constant attack from religious conservatives who are motivated by the desire to privilege their own viewpoints. When intelligent design creationism came to Australia in 2005, I don't remember any religious leaders defending the integrity of biology do you? So it's pretty understandable that he isn't too thrilled with religion when it's religious people, organisations and leaders who are giving him and the whole field of biology a hard time.

Religion, pure and undiluted, needs to call out bad religion when it crops up; when the 'Army of God' kills an abortion doctor, leaders of the pure religion need to say something. But instead, we see people drawing on religious doctrine (abortion, homosexuality, IVF, premarital sex etc is wrong) to justify murder and violence.

[Fred]

"But instead, we see people drawing on religious doctrine (abortion, homosexuality, IVF, premarital sex etc is wrong) to justify murder and violence."

Thats the point we are trying to make... its not the religious doctrine which actually states that you MUST go and murder someone because he/she is homosexual or underwent abortion/IVF etc. Its what people make of the actual doctrine that causes the problems. If you want to have a go at religion just for that reason then you should have a go at economic theorist who say that exploitation of workers and sweatshops are good because they provide jobs to citizens of 3rd world country. How about biologists in the early 20th century who suggest that genetically people of colour were made to be physically superior and their pale counterparts to be mentally more superior? In fact why do we not have a go at scientists and main stream theorists for giving a hard time to people who believe that "aliens created human beings and brought them to earth on UFOs"??

The point is that science isnt always right either, its a process of theorising and experimenting.. i wouldnt be surprised if one day someone else come up with the theory and proves that the earth does not gravitate around the sun or that atoms/ions etc are not the smallest particles. For many years "scientists" under the patronage of religion had people believe the world was flat until it was proven otherwise. Many still think of it as a slap in the face of religion but I think that by admitting its error and eventually accepting the new theory, it was in a way returned to its roots of humility, acceptance and reminded believers of the fact that NOBODY is perfect. Similarly with evolution and im sure more currently accepted theories will be challenged as well in time to come. To me this is a good thing because it will keep reminding believers and religious organisations that no one is perfect and all knowing.

As for religion being the main source of belief, I dont think thats been the case since the Reformation and the birth of modern politics.

[Bronwyn]

I agree that people are driven by belief. But not all beliefs are religious by nature, which is why it is wrong to place the blame on religion. As Fred pointed out, religion has been largely replaced since the Reformation and the birth of modern politics.

Here's a little something I discovered not long ago: I asked racist on the Stormfront forum why he believes white people are superior to non-whites. I half expected some cock'n'bull explanation from the King James Bible! None were forthcoming - he was atheist, ridiculed the notion of God or other divinity, he hates religion (he went on about it so much I joked to him he hates religion more than non-whites - big mistake! Never have I been sworn at so much before! hahahahahaha... it was rather funny).

But his terrible racism came from somewhere: a belief (of 'white superiority'), yes. A religion, no. Even if this guy was religious, there's still nothing in religious texts that declare that one race is superior over others. So, again, I just cannot accept that religion, pure and unadultered, is to be blamed for all the ills in the world. The only link to religion is when people utilise their religion and bend it to fit their agenda, ulterior motives, whatever. Or it could be a fundamentalist or erroneous/uneducated reading of a religious doctrine.

BTW, this is a good discussion. I like how it's very civil, considering we're on a 'no-no' topic: religion!!

[Jason]

Wars have been (are being) fought in the name of religion only for purely political purposes.

And here is the problem. A fair bulk of religious rhetoric is based on dusty ideas that were created in order to manipulate people.

What works for Dubya and Osama today worked for their contemporaries decades and centuries ago.

The mystery of history gives dusty old text books a rose colouring, that is all.

[Ged]

All these Cults (RELIGIONS) and there programming, they no doubt have there place, where would the insecure and weak reside if it were not for the mask of truths so cleverly worn by these cults. How would it be if people could find and realise there own truths(aboriginal cultures) through the inherent logic of SPIRIT and LOVE without the official versions of "GOD" interfering there so called doctrines. Oh yes that's right there is only ONE GOD and he knows all. So says a book that is supposedly far more meaningful then all the painstaking self realised Personal Truths that have ever passed before us. And that book was shared all over the world helping all those poor ignorant souls to Know and FEAR GOD. . because if they wronged him they were to expect HELL and DAMNATION....amazing what Religion has done for the Planet eh!

[Bronwyn]

My religion does not believe in "hell" and "damnation". Are you talking about Christianity, Ged? Because Christianity is the religion that emphasises "hell" and "damnation". So... again, it's not the broad umbrella of *religion* that's the problem, is it, when it comes to "wronging God"?

Apart from that, many Christians I know do not live in fear of wronging God and hell and damnation, so I don't know if you're generalising or what, but if you want to elaborate, I'd be more than interested to hear it. :-)

[Ged]

Yes primarily Christianity, as well as any religion that uses fear to control there followers. Religions that plant their fear based seeds are low energies. It is a shame that most people that have political power in this country follow such belief systems. Or are they just taking Political advantage because it serves there Political agendas. Don't answer that...I know there is a lot of good being done by many differing people within the Religions I just so wish all the spirits involved in Religion were like Bob and that French bloke... EMPATHS

[Bronwyn]

I wish the same thing too, Ged.

I agree that a lot of various religions (or, rather, the Big Bosses) keep their followers in fear (for whatever reason: moral, political, etc). I'm just glad my religion doesn't hold me in fear. :-)

[Rick Giles]

Yes, B. Safran visited some white supremisists in his docco and discovered the same thing.

I believe that all beliefs are religious if the core of the given person's belief system, their metaphysics, is religious. So you're still on the hook far as I'm concerned. Hope this comes up again on another thread.

[Bronwyn]

Hiya RG, what doco is this? Haven't seen it but my interest is certainly piqued. Thx, B.

[Helga]

Hello!

See you. Donna